Bob Jensen's Threads on the Decline in U.S. Accounting Majors
Bob Jensen at Trinity University
One of the features of my website in recent years has been a threading of conversations that I initiated with faculty and other contributors around the world. The purpose of this document is to provide some threads regarding the decline in accounting majors in the U.S. during the 1990s.
Table of Contents
Accounting Education: Charting the Course through a Perilous Future
CPA Career Passed Away: A Futuristic Letter
Bob Jensen's Original Message on June 7, 2000
Reply from John Hayden on June 18, 2000
Reply 01 from Jagdish S. Gangolly on June 18, 2000
Reply from Denny Beresford on June 19, 2000
Reply from David Fordham on June 19, 2000
Reply from Kate Mooney on June 19, 2000
Reply from Roger Collins on June 19, 2000
Reply 02 from Jagdish S. Gangolly on June 19, 2000
Reply from Scott Bonacker on June 19, 2000
Reply from Alan Sangster on June 20, 2000
Reply to Art Joy on June 21, 2000
Reply 03 from Jagdish S. Gangolly on June 21, 2000
Reply from Joe Brady on June 21, 2000
Reply 02 from Roger Collins on June 21, 2000
Reply 02 from Art Joy on June 21, 2000
Reply 03 from Art Joy on June 21, 2000
Reply 02 from Scott Bonacker on June 21, 2000
Reply from Ed Scribner on June 21, 2000
Reply 03 from Roger Collins on June 21, 2000
Reply from Tony Tinker on June 22, 2000
Reply 03 from Scott Bonacker on June 23, 2000
Is the answer at the high school level?
Message from Paul Dierkes on November 4, 2000
Message from Harold Goedde on November 4, 2000
Update in August 2000: "Accounting Education: Charting the Course through a Perilous Future,"
For By Niquette M. Kelcher's review of the report go to http://accounting.pro2net.com/x26053.xml
The report, "Accounting Education: Charting the Course through a Perilous Future," is a joint project of the American Accounting Association, American Institute of CPAs, Institute of Management Accountants, and the Big Five, and was written by W. Steve Albrecht, past president of the AAA and associate dean of the Marriott School of Management at Brigham Young University, and Robert Sack, emeritus professor of business administration at the University of Virginia. It has been much talked-about since it was published and presented to over 2,000 educators at the American Accounting Association annual conference in August.
The report's basic conclusion is harsh: "If we don't do something we're going to be out of business," Albrecht said.
Michael A. Diamond, past president of the AAA, agreed. "Accounting departments are no longer the crown jewel of business programs," he said. "These programs are nothing more than a service department."
The call for change is not new. Diamond cited studies since 1991 that warned the profession was "not attracting a sufficient number of students," that the "accounting education environment cries out for action" and the 150-hour rule is an "unyielding straightjacket."
The new, 72-page report discusses why the future of accounting education is in danger; how the business environment has changed and reactions to these changes; why accounting student enrollment has declined; "why accounting educators and practitioners would not major in accounting again"; and what needs to be done to improve accounting education.
Business Environment Changes Changes in the business environment, the report contends, are affecting the accounting industry. These changes include technology, globalization and "the concentration of power in certain market investors, primarily large mutual and pension funds," according to the report. These drivers of changes have resulted in inexpensive information and increased competition, which in turn have led to a slew of changes in the business environment, from the emergence of new companies and industries, to increased focus on customer satisfaction.
The reactions to these changes vary: The Big Five firms "have transformed themselves into completely different kinds of entities." Organizations such as the IMA now call management accountants "finance professionals," and accounting education has placed emphasis on faculty development.
But the reaction to these changes has been too slow, and the current supply of accounting students does not meet firms' hiring demands, the report says.
Accounting Student Enrollment Declines The reports notes that many college students choose their major based on starting salaries. Accounting starting salaries, though once competitive with other disciplines, now lag behind the competition. The solution, says the report, is to direct students to career opportunities that offer competitive salaries, which may mean educators stop sending their students to the Big Five.
"A cold, hard business fact," said Sack, is it "may be time to cut our close connection to the CPA firms. We have skewed the market because we have chased the Big Five."
Students are also willing to choose more risky majors these days. With a strong economy students are not as worried about changing jobs or careers. In turn, this may lead them to more attractive career alternatives, such as information systems and finance specialties. "Rip out all the pages from your textbook that don't have to do with technology," said Albrecht, "and you'll have a thin textbook."
The report blames misinformation and lack of information about accounting programs and careers for a decline in interest in accounting programs. According to the report, high school guidance counselors have outdated versions of what skills are needed to become an accountant. With globalization, accounting has become much more than "bean counting." Furthermore, high school accounting courses are either not offered or are boring, with too much emphasis on numbers and little focus on the interactive, hands-on activities accountants partake in every day.
"High schoolers don't see accountants," explained Albrecht, and therefore don't understand their role in the business world. This has resulted in fewer students at both the secondary and post-secondary levels taking interest in the profession.
The report seeks to end the question if the 150-hour rule is really to blame for the decline. According to the report, "it appears the 150-hour requirement has less to do with the decrease in accounting students than does beginning salaries or information." The problem is "with the kinds of requirements universities have implemented to fulfill the 150-hour programs." Enrollment is down due to the extra year of school, which has been implemented at an inappropriate time or in inappropriate ways.
Perhaps the researchers most enlightening discovery is that accounting majors, if given the opportunity to turn back time and re-select their major, would not choose accounting again.
Reasons vary: The CPA brand is not as affluent as before, accounting careers are not as financially attractive, and technology has eliminated much of the traditional work of accountants.
Practitioners also expressed their concern about today's accounting education model. Many feel programs are not preparing students for the new, emerging roles of accountants.
Reaction from the Rank and File In a plenary session immediately following Albrecht and Sack's presentation at the Philadelphia AAA meeting, a room packed with educators and at-large members of the accounting community shared their thoughts. A professor from Alaska said he was disappointed that accounting programs were not fully embracing technology in the classroom. Another educator said it was time for faculty to "learn how to teach how to learn" to their students, addressing the concern that accounting programs are not attracting qualified students.
"It's not the AICPA's problem. It's not the AAA's problem. It's not the Big Five's problem. It's not just an academic problem. It's a professional problem," Albrecht told the crowd.
But despite this statement, Albrecht believes the two main obstacles to improving accounting education include society's poor image of accountants and the accounting profession, as well as accounting education's slow reaction to fix something that is steadily getting worse.
"Students don't like it when professors won't give them the answers," Sack said, and too many professors are teaching for positive evaluation forms. "It's hard to teach people to think. It's easier to teach rules." He then pointed out to young educators that they are the ones in the unique position to "take risks."
To reverse the steady decline and improve accounting education, the report suggests that every accounting department analyze its course content and curricula, pedagogy, faculty development and reward systems, strategic direction, skill development and technology.
"Corporate and public accounting firms are working hard to transform themselves into finance professionals and professional services firms," concludes the report. "It is now accounting education's turn to transform itself. Failure to do so could be fatal."
Potential and current accounting students may wonder why, after such a grim report, they should continue to pursue an accounting degree. As Sack simply said, "It is fundamentally the most comprehensive discipline that helps us understand the entity [of business] as a whole."
The report itself is available from the American Accounting Association at http://www.rutgers.edu/Accounting/raw/aaa/
Bob Jensen's Original Message at http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/book00q2.htm#060700
Career note: Accounting professors may want to mention to accounting students that salaries are going UP UP and AWAY! I learned last week that some top universities are now offering newly-minted (usually ABD) assistant professors of accounting $120,000 for nine months plus 2/9 for virtually every summer for research (as long as this research is productive.) I won't mention names of the universities here, but it is surprising that a few of them are between the Missouri River and California in parts of the U.S. having universities that typically attract faculty at lower salaries due to climate, lifestyle, and scenery. I might also note that those salaries are not restricted to AIS professors where extreme shortages are expected to force salaries even higher. One director of a school of accountancy told me that compression is now an accepted fact of life --- most tenured accounting faculty in the U.S. earn less than new (ABD) faculty in accountancy at top universities. Bob Jensen's advice is to tear up that dusty old dissertation and start writing a new one so you can regain ABD status and request a starting salary.
At the same time, the number of accounting majors continues to decline. On May 29, 2000, the Accounting Student Newsletter reported the following at http://www.accountingstudents.com/news/press/0005/decrease.asp
American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (AICPA) recently announced that the number of students enrolled in accounting degree programs continues to drop significantly. 192,330 students were enrolled in accounting degree programs in 1995. That number has decreased by 23 percent with only 147,880 students in 1999.
Though many are quick to blame the 150-hour rule, AICPA president Barry Melancon does not believe it is the problem. The 150-hour rule, a provision of the Uniform Accountancy Act approved by the AICPA and the National Association of State Boards of Accountancy (NASBA), requires 150 hours of college-level accounting study for people to sit for the CPA exam or to qualify for licensing. All but five states have adopted the rule. In last week's AICPA council meeting, Melancon pointed out that all states, whether or not they have enacted the rule, have seen the number of enrolled students decrease.
I disagree with Barry Melancon on this issue. I think the 150-hour rule has had dramatic impact in large measure, because it kicked in for many of us at a time when employment opportunities for finance, information systems, and other business majors rose dramatically in a boom economy. Soaring salaries for computer science majors also played a huge role. Why go for five years when jobs at higher salaries are available after only four years of college in another major?
There are other problems in the accounting careers, some of which are being exacerbated by the SEC. If the above items interest you, you may want to look at my Career Passed Away article at http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/cpaaway.htm
Reply from John Hayden on June 18, 2000
Of course they do not attribute it to 5 year programs, they pushed them! I have had many students say things like why go for a five year accounting program when I can go for a four year in something else. I have also had five year grads say why bother with my CPA when I already have my MBA I do not need it.
John Hayden
Merrie & John Hayden [m.j.hayden@PRODIGY.NET]
Reply 01 from Jagdish S. Gangolly on June 18, 2000
First, let me provide a slippery slope argument.
A pre-med can ask: why spend 12 years in college (4 undergrad +4 medschool +1internship +3residency)
when I can do 4 years of finance and be an investment banker?A highschool senior can ask: Why study 5 years of architecture while I can study civil engineering in 4 years?
Or better yet, a highschool senior can ask: why go to college at all while I can start off as an apprentice plumber and make a lot of money?
This is a slippery slope. The question is, does accounting aspire to be a learned profession (like law and medicine) or a trade? If it is the latter, we might as well fold accounting programs at college level, since it is difficult to convince any one that a college level education is really needed for such a trade. In fact, it is my understanding that the English Institute did not have a college degree requirement for articleship (of course, I stand to be corrected). And the better known English colleges did not have commerce as an area of study (those that did have were outstanding ACADEMIC programs though).
Let me now provide an argument why 5 year rule was unavoidable (not for reason of skull-numbing drudgery of
SFASrecitation). In the old days, the large firms held themselves out as auditors first, and consultants next. In that regime, audit practices cross-subsidized the consulting practices with human resources that were business-savvy. The high turnover rates testify to this.Then began the rift between these two wings, and by now it is clear that the time has come to stop the subsidies.
This will mean the audit practices will have highly diminished human resource requirements (at least at the entry level), and for the cost of audits to be under control, the high turnover rates can not be tolerated. This is evidenced by greater selectivity by firms.I think we in academia are emotionally back in the heady days when accounting was King. We still do not emphasize the development of the whole human being, but in producing walking SFAS machines. We have yet to adjust to our newly unexalted status.
My own personal feeling is that we have needlessly limited our potential, at least in the United States, by looking upon ourselves as the suppliers of cheap audit labor. This has come out in the AACSB assessment for accounting accreditation at least at my school.
As for the dwindling enrolments also I think we have no one to blame but ourselves. In our basic courses
we make accounting appear uninteresting, dull and drab, and often attract those willing to be drones.I have been deliberately provocative above. A healthy and vigorous debate on this will be useful.
From: J. S. Gangolly
gangolly@CSC.ALBANY.EDU
Reply from Denny Beresford on June 19, 2000
I agree 100% with Professor Gangolly's comment. While accounting standards are necessary (otherwise I wasted ten years of my life), there's too much emphasis here (University of Georgia) and the majority
of other university accounting programs. We have three full semesters of intermediate accounting wherein we beat the accounting rules to death. Our philosophy seems to be sort of survival of the fittest,
although I don't think that necessarily equates to helping students prepare to become business leaders.I don't have any easy answers but perhaps if a consensus develops on the nature of the problem there can be more directed efforts to fix it.
Reply from David Fordham on June 19, 2000
And while we're on the subject, why in the world would anyone bother go to college for not one, but
three, more years PAST a masters, just to be a professor, knowing full well that they will be making less than a half, perhaps even a third, of what they could make in their field in business with their masters? Sheesh. Go figure.The key is to portray accounting positively, and make it attractive. We have had 5% increase in accounting major enrollments each year for the past three years, and even greater growth in our AIS program (which generally is a 4-1/2 year program anyway). And our students have known the 150-hour rule was coming for several years now.
I believe the problem is in perception. CIS and MIS are perceived to be more glamorous, more creative, more
innovative and more rewarding than accounting. Thus, those fields are skimming off the students who are more
creative, more innovative, etc. "Perception is more real than reality." "We are not your father's accountants."David Fordham
James Madison University
fordhadr@JMU.EDU
Reply from Kate Mooney on June 19, 2000
I think the posters who attribute enrollment declines to something other than the education requirements have it right. The 150 hour requirement just passed in Minnesota. Until 2006 you can become a CPA in this state with only a high school diploma. In spite of this low education requirement, the recruiters are experiencing a shortage of people available for entry level accounting positions, and none are pushing students to get the 150 hours. Must be the relatively low starting salaries, the image thing, boring undergrad classes, work/life balance issues, or ????
Kate Mooney, PhD, CPA
Professor and Chair, Dept. of Accounting
G. R. Herberger College of Business
St. Cloud State University
St. Cloud, MN 56301 USA
e-mail: kate@stcloudstate.edu
Reply from Roger Collins on June 19, 2000
Certainly, this used to be the case. When I was employed by a London firm of Chartered Accountants (for a short and painful period and longer ago than I care to remember) there were three "entry tracks" to the profession - the shortest, for those with "relevant" degrees, a slightly longer one for "non-relevant" degrees
and the longest for those with no degree at all. This has, I believe, now changed to all-degree entry. It may be worth noting that the late David Solomons wrote a report - "Horizons for a Profession" in 1973 in which he recommended an all-degree entry scheme but - I believe - with a shorter rather than a longer degree.On Jagdish' point about .."the better known English colleges not having commerce as an area of study" - if you admit Economics as an area of commerce then this is not correct, since at both Oxford and Cambridge the PPE - Philosophy, Politics and Economics - combination is and has for many years been a major qualification.
However, until very recently neither university offered courses in "modern" accounting - although Geoff Whittington, an economist by training, was and remains very active on the UK accounting research front (see
http://www.econ.cam.ac.uk/faculty/whitting/index.htm). One interesting twist to this was that the form of accounting used in the Roman Empire was a subject offered. Reason ? - the management of estates of nobility/landed gentry - a material issue for many Oxbridge students - could be adequately understood by
using the accounting system used by the Romans to administer their estates.
Reply 02 from Jagdish S. Gangolly on June 19, 2000
I realize that Cambridge has had a tradition, specially with the early work on national income accounting (yielding, I believe, a Nobel, probably the only one for an "accountant"), and Arthur Cayley , both a barrister and a mathematician (and one of my heroes, who wrote one of the earliest accounting texts), taught there. However, I am not sure one or two accounting courses on the periphery of economics would count as an accounting program, if one considers just professionally oriented programs.
I do not know of Oxford ever having an accounting program in that sense. I do not know the situation now, since Oxford seems to have departed from the original model (mods, greats, and later PPE, et.al).
One interesting twist to this was that the form of accounting used in the Roman Empire was a subject offered. Reason ? - the management of estates of nobility/landed gentry - a material issue for many Oxbridge students - could be adequately understood by using the accounting system used by the Romans to administer their estates.
I wish accounting programs had more of the history, and humanities perspective providing courses. As a systems professional, I deal with computer scientists, economists, mathematicians/statisticians, information/library scientists, ... I am often ashamed to admit that we accountants often are not very interesting precisely because we have not had the same QUALITY of exposure to the humanities that some others have had. I have been fighting in my department to have an accounting historian on board (and I find some colleagues rolling their eyes whenever I bring up the topic). I also would have loved to have an accountants who also was a poet or a musician as colleagues.
I think, so long as we reinforce the concept (either by sheer inertia or actively) in our students that humanities are stumbling blocks between them and their jobs with CPA firms, we will not be on the path to being a learned profession. Tragically, in my opinion, this was not forced upon us by the accounting profession -- we forced it upon ourselves as academics.
Jagdish S. Gangolly, Associate Professor
j.gangolly@albany.edu
Reply from Scott Bonacker on June 19, 2000
I would like to say something in support of what Jagdish said -
When I went for my degree, there was little or nothing said about getting a liberal arts education. The emphasis was on getting the core classes out of the way, and then taking whatever was needed for a BS with an emphasis in accounting. Although I think it has changed now, some called the university I went to a 'technical college'. There was and is a private school here that provided a liberal arts education first and then let them specialize. This school was said to educate managers rather than technicians. Even lawyers get a liberal arts background first.
Perhaps if my instructors had communicated accountancy as a means to an end, rather than the end itself. Once we'd figured out how to amortize bond discounts and premiums that was it. We were done.
By the way - I'd like to know more about Roman accounting.
Scott Bonacker, CPA
scottbonacker@MOCCPA.COM
Reply from Alan Sangster on June 20, 2000
Just an update on Roger's comments re English qualification routes. In the UK there are six chartered bodies of which three are of the traditional CA form: the English and Welsh Chartered Accountants (ICAEW), the Scots
Chartered Accountants (ICAS), and the Irish Chartered Accountants (ICAI). Their entry routes differ. The ICAEW have both a graduate and a non-graduate entry route and they do not operate any system of relevant degrees. The Scots, on the other hand, have relevant degree entrants, non-relevant degree entrants (who sit an extra layer of exams), and non-graduate entrants. The Irish give the greatest exemptions to relevant graduates, but only those from specific schools. The other three chartered bodies (CIMA, ACCA, and CIPFA) are closer to the Scottish model than either the English or Irish ones. It is such a complex situation that very few faculty actually know the various alternatives available to students.In brief, there is a non-graduate route into the Chartered Accountancy bodies in the UK
Alan Sangster
a.sangster@OPEN.AC.UK
Reply to Art Joy on June 21, 2000
In response to Scott's and Jagdish's comments (below) about the value of the liberal arts in accounting education (comments with which I fully agree), you may find it of interest that at the April 1999 annual meeting of the AACSB, Hugh L. McColl, Jr, Chairman & CEO of Bank of America, was recognized as the Beta Gamma Sigma National Honoree of the year. In his acceptance remarks, he stated:
"...what I'd like to do today is to talk through you to your students — the future businesspeople of this country — about what has made me successful and what I think will help them be successful. I'd like to talk about business education and the liberal arts, and why I think that in today's world economy, competence in the former should be more dependent on mastery of the latter than ever before. I'd like to encourage your students — the business community's future leaders — to take their liberal arts classes just as seriously as they take their economics classes.
"I want to talk about the value in business of being interested — not just interested in business case studies, or management theories or organizational models — but interested in people. In life. In the world. Because at the end of the day, this is what business is all about..."
These were not just remarks in passing -- this was the theme of his entire speech. If you are interested in the complete text of his speech (and I hope you are,) it is at:
http://WWW.bankofamerica.com/newsroom/speeches/speech.cfm?SpeechID=speech.19990420.01.htm
(Note, that's one continuous URL -- too long too fit on a single line. However, if you get as far as /newsroom/speeches you can look in their speech archives for 1999. The date of the speech was April 20, 1999, and the title of the speech was "Remembering Mr. Eliot")
I thought that this was a fascinating message for a CEO to bring to a gathering made up of mostly business deans.
Reply 03 from Jagdish S. Gangolly on June 21, 2000
Thanks, Art. The McColl lecture was outstanding.
Back in the sixties when I started working in industry in India (after a Masters in Operations Research), I was surprised to discover that most of the higher-ups in the company never had business or commerce training,
but had liberal arts degrees. Soon I discovered the secrets to their success: well-rounded education ( my boss
was a lit major who could quote Milton and most Shakespearean soliloquies with equal facility), passion
for life-long learning, inquiring minds, brilliant writing, outstanding speaking skills. I don't think most accounting
classes develop these, but I do not think it has to be that way.Jagdish S. Gangolly, Associate Professor
j.gangolly@albany.edu
Reply from Joe Brady on June 21, 2000
In defense of increasing business school requirements, to include more liberal arts courses, Art Joy wrote:
... you may find it of interest that at the April 1999 annual meeting of the AACSB, Hugh L. McColl, Jr, Chairman & CEO of Bank of America, was recognized as the Beta Gamma Sigma National Honoree of the year. In his acceptance remarks, he stated:
"... I'd like to encourage your students to take their liberal arts classes just as seriously as they take their economics classes. ... "I want to talk about the value in business of ... being interested in people. In life. In the world. Because at the end of the day, this is what business is all about..."
These were not just remarks in passing -- this was the theme of his entire speech.
***** ***** *****
Most of us would probably agree: Advancement in most if not all disciplines depends primarily on understanding how people and the world work. As opposed to mastery of a discipline's technical requirements.
McColl and Art Joy seem to assume: 1. People skills and organizational skills that can help in the real
world can be learned in the classroom, and 2. The time for such coursework is in the undergraduate years (in the
case of the 50 hour requirement, in the fifth year).The validity of these assumptions is by no means evident.
The argument made is that the business undergraduate curriculum is too short, needing more NON-business credits. Call that assertion A.
The opposite argument would be that the business undergraduate curriculum is too long and needs less non-business credits. Call that assertion B.
I will tell you what I think, based on my experience rubbing shoulders with 300 MIS students a year for a lot of years, working with the recruiters, seeing what young people do in their part time off campus jobs, seeing the general level of sophistication that today's young person has attained, and so forth: Assertion B has more face validity than assertion A.
Give them enough technical skills to start a career. Give some liberal arts work in the last year, not the first year. Graduate them a year earlier -- they'll learn more about the world *in* the world. Encourage people to study throughout their lives thereafter.
Joe Brady
Accounting and MIS
College of Business and Economics
University of Delaware
brady@UDEL.EDU
Reply 02 from Roger Collins on June 21, 2000
I read it; its brilliant; Mr. McColl is free to address my class any time he likes.
Roger Collins
UCC School of Business
rcollins@CARIBOO.BC.CA
Reply 02 from Art Joy on June 21, 2000
McColl's speech did not call for _more_ liberal arts in the curriculum -- his remarks focused on attitude. I'm sure that many of us know students and faculty who look on the liberal arts or general education component of the curriculum as on obstacle to get out of the way so that the students can get to the "real courses". McColl said students (and we) should treat those courses as equally important as the business portion of the curriculum; recognize their value; don't put them down or imply (as I have heard some faculty do) that they are a waste of time.
The one place in his speech where he implied that "more" might be appropriate was his advocacy of inclusion of foreign language(s) in the curriculum. Yet the University of Illinois College of Commerce recently added a foreign language component to its undergraduate business curriculum, so perhaps McColl is not out of line here, either.
Reply 03 from Art Joy on June 21, 2000
Roger,
Glad you enjoyed McColl's remarks. Of course you don't have to invite McColl to address your classes -- simply assign his talk as a reading assignment.
Art Joy
Joy_Arthur@COLSTATE.EDU
Reply 02 from Scott Bonacker on June 21, 2000
It's more than just what happens at the point where a person gets their education. Read the accounting publications. JofA and Practical Accountant are two that I read, and what do you see? Accounting issues, tax issues, independence issues, estate planning, tax problems. All of these are very exciting, but that's it. Nothing about quality of life, nothing about developing staff, nothing about motivating the receptionist and making the client excited to be in your office. Nothing about developing the accountant as a person.
One thing I am glad about, though, is that at least the jokes about accountants mostly only make fun of us for being literal minded. Jokes about attorney's portray them as evil. I think we can recover from being literal minded.
Scott Bonacker, CPA
McCullough, Officer & Company, LLC
scottbonacker@MOCCPA.COM
Reply from Ed Scribner on June 21, 2000
Scott,
As long as they don't make fun of us for being symbol minded.
Ed
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ed Scribner
Contador de los Frijoles Refritos
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces
escribne@NMSU.EDU
Reply 03 from Roger Collins on June 21, 2000
I think I'll do that. Thanks, Art
Roger
PS I also copied the URL to our Dean of ArtsRoger Collins
UCC School of Business
rcollins@CARIBOO.BC.CA
Reply Tony Tinker on June 22, 2000
Dear Jagdish,
Nice to discover such a heavy concentration of wisdom elsewhere on the East Coast! I concur with your analysis (especially the influence of German -- especially -- Hegel ) on American education. But I would also add a codicil to my earlier comment:
1. It is a dirty British secret that many redbrick universities are also up-to-their-necks in the reproduction of social elite's (not just Oxbridge). Manchester's accounting intake, for instance, consists of some 50% from "public" (i.e., private) high school students, while nationally, public schools constitute only 7% of the high school output. The only contact between this university and its dilapidated local community is that the students "just love" their curry.
2. The immediate dynamic of capitalism has a pronounced affect on the differential rates of commodification of education in the U.S. and the U.K. The managerialist proclivities in the U.S. (the first step in the division of labor between planning and execution) has been more successfully resisted by the academic craft structures of British Universities. However, this all changed with the polytechnic upgrade, the removal of tenure, and the research rating exercise. The U.K. is now seeing new, market-oriented regimes. It won't be long before Oxbridge is the only remaining monument to their nostalgic past. Good riddance!
Fraternally,
Tony Tinker
Professor
Co-Editor: Critical Perspectives on Accounting
Co-Editor: Accounting Forum
Baruch College: Box E-723
17 Lexington Avenue
New York, NY 10010
TonyTinker@EMAIL.MSN.COM
Reply 03 from Scott Bonacker on June 23, 2000
Here's a thought - diminish the supply of talent, and at the same time tighten regulation so that only those who are appropriately trained can do certain acts. Wait a minute, in Missouri at the moment CPA's are the only ones that can issue audit reports, and in some cases CPA's don't have to provide additional documentation to prove competency when filing a power of attorney.A rational person might consider how the CPA designation enhances credibility and provides stature in relation to the extra work to gain it. That same rational person might be working on a related masters or doctorate and the incremental effort to qualify for and pass the CPA test might not be all that much. Therefore the number of CPA's in occupations demanding a high level of technical training might not diminish.Chances are that the person who just wants to open a solo practice in a rural area and provide services to farms and other small businesses and individuals won't also be committed to an advanced academic degree, so that person might choose not to become certified. The number of CPA's in small local practices might therefore diminish.The business people I deal with are smart enough to know that a licensed and trained professional is better for them than a "shade tree bookkeeper", but that doesn't mean that they are committed to a CPA per se. If there were a state license for practitioners with a lesser level of education than a five-year degree - say, for example, a four year degree like mine - they might just use that person. Whether that shift would occur depends on perception of competency as well as the reality.Nothing stays the same forever. The level of effort that it took me to become a CPA at the end of the 1970's would not be enough if I began post-high school education today, and even that likely won't be comparable to the level of effort it will take in 2005 or 2010 or 2020.Should it? I doubt it. Two hundred years ago the level of knowledge needed to be competitive in the general marketplace may seem low looking back on it from the present-day perspective, but as a contemporary at the time I'm sure it didn't look like just basic knowledge. At that time it didn't matter if a person had the concept of a space-time continuum, but now there may be something of an advantage to having a smattering of knowledge of physics, geometry, topology, computer programming ... well, you know what I mean.What mattered then, and matters now, and will matter in the future is the ability to analyze a situation, break it down and then put the components back together in a creative manner to find a way to move forward, along with the positive attitude that allows a person to take a chance on their ideas.The level of effort needed to become able to analyze, and then actually be in a position to take action may be the thing that is moving forward. If we want to remain in the same position relative to the wave-front that we are now we have to advance with it.I agree that the number of students who are in class to become a CPA might decline as a percentage of the total. If there is a non-competitive viewpoint for an instructor, however, that wouldn't matter if the states create another class of licensed professionals equal to last-year's CPA (ie: students entering under the rules prior to the five-year degree requirement) because there will always be a place for competent practitioners who value a professional designation. The satisfaction lies in how you feel about what you do - not necessarily the specific letters after the name.The CPA of the future may be something different altogether, and a person equal to me might be what - a PCA?. The franchiser owns the CPA brand. I'm just a franchisee. In the era that I live in the CPA designation was(is) necessary to do what I do because it's programmed into the simulation as a Trekky might say.Are you concerned with the three letters "A" and "C" and "P" arranged in a particular order, or with the service that the person provides and/or it's relative position in the hierarchy of the business environment? It may be correct to say there are fewer and fewer candidates for that highest level designation, CPA or whatever. But it could be replace with something else. It's just a matter of marketing.Cheers.Scott Bonacker, CPA McCullough, Officer & Company, LLC Springfield, Missouri scottbonacker@MOCCPA.COM
Is the answer at the high school level?
ACCOUNTING EDUCATION REFORM MUST BEGIN IN HIGH SCHOOLS
Changes at the high school level are needed to assure the future of accounting education and a steady supply of qualified candidates into the profession, according to a leading accountancy educator. http://www.accountingstudents.com/news/press/0006/reform.asp
Message from Paul Dierks on November 4, 2000
My son sent me some information on the Crimson Permanent Assurance movie: The story is about a bunch of accountants working in this office like Roman galley slaves rowing their ten-keys to the beat of this vicious boss. They end up in a mutiny and take over the office, then "sail" their building all over the world as "corporate raiders". Attached is a .jpg clip of a picture of the evil accounting pirates.
He also sent me a couple of links to a site with pictures and sound from the movie.
This link prints out the words to the Sea of Accountancy song - plus it has a link to hear it (but it played very poorly when I tried it). http://hamilton99.execmba.com/crimson.htm
Here's a page explaining the accounting clip AND a link to clearly hear the "Accountant's Song". http://www.entrenet.com/~jquinsey/cuesoft/cpa/index.html
Here's s set of 48 pictures of movie scenes: http://www.stone-dead.asn.au/movies/crimson-permanent-assurance/pictures.html
These are all from a Monte Python site at: http://www.stone-dead.asn.au/movies/
Paul Dierks [Paul.Dierks@MBA.WFU.EDU]
Message from Harold Goedde on November 4, 2000
To some extent that is happening in high schools also. I just came back from the AICPA accounting educators conference and part of the discussion was concerning high school students not being aware of opportunities in accounting. The concensus among the participants was that high school accounting (really bookkeeping) is taught as a "vocational" course not a college prep track. As a result you get lower quality students in these courses and not the best ones. Also, many of the people teaching these courses are Bus Ed majors who may have had one or two accounting courses in college (and was not their "favorite" courses) and may have been C students in those courses. Are these the type of people we want motivating students to be future accountants. Also, we need to get the REAL CPA s in to the high schools and elementary-junior high-to talk to these students to let them know what a CPA does and the exciting career opportunites available and now particularly since the new "cognitor" desigation is coming on board (which does not require one to be a CPA) The AICPA is developing a project and materials to reach out to the high school counselors, teachers, and students to let them know that accounting is not some kind of "remedial" skill and we are not money counters as many think from the Taylor study. Hopefully, these myths will soon go away but it will take time.
It also puts a burden on us college accounting professors to do a better job of teaching SKILLS instead of procedures and FASB's in our courses. We need to integrate the various accounting and business courses and not teach them as stand alone courses. The new CPA exam coming up in 2003 is pretty well finalized in term of subject material to be tested. They will now be testing not only the current traditional subjects but also financial management, economics, technology, and general business skills. Canditates will also have to be able to integrate these various subjects in different parts of the exam using simulations. For example, for the Attestation part of the exam they will have to answer questions that require use of computer programs and integrate technology, accounting, auditing., assurance standards, business (finance, economics, management), taxation, and law. Will our students be ready????? We have a big job and challenge ahead of us.....
Harold Goedde [goeddeh@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU]
At 12:43 PM 11/2/00 -0600, you wrote:
I was watching "The Factor" last night and the assistant Superintendent of the San Francisco school system was being interviewed regarding the fact that 30% of their seniors were not going to graduate based on new criteria established 3 years ago. As the conversation continued he stated that "we move students toward accounting, computers, and other vocational skills is they are not successful in our curriculum. At least that way they can get a job [If they can't graduate or go to college]. " Does anyone else see this as a problem! It appears that the K-12 system (as least in San Francisco) views accounting as a remedial skill. Could this be the main reason behind our declining enrollments?
JeffJeff L. Payne, Ph.D CPA
Michael F. Price College of Business School of Accounting
University of Oklahoma
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